I was wondering if anyone has ever read a book called Guns, Germs and Steel? Fascinating reading to be sure.

I have read some of it, need to find the time to sit down and read it all. Very thought provoking and despite what I would call overly PC very accurate info in regards to crops and agriculture in general. and of course to all the problems population explosions based on AG have brought. Not all agrarian societies though lost the balance or grew out of proportion. Anyway good book so far in my chapter hopping

It is a very pc book and dry reading to be sure but I find the premise interesting that anyone who started where they did would have been the dominant civlization. Yet throughout the long and sordid history of europe they would others believe they were the chosen people. turns out wasichu just got lucky in geography. i have always maintained that none are no human being than other.

I have not read the book in its entirety but I am now about half way through it. I think the book was very revealing.

It has always been my opinion, in regards to the conquest of the America's that it was not that it was not right or wrong, it just was. After all, human history has been one giant example of migrations, conquest and wars. Whether locally, where Tribes would war and take over the losing tribes land and territory, or regionally where small nations or empires would war or expand to gain territory. Even in the Pre-Columbian Central and South American Empires this was the case. The Spaniards however, had Guns,Germs and Steel on their side and as history shows they conquered a large part of the Americas. It is no different than a local tribe or empire conquering another Amerindian one except one from a continent away. That is not to say that the Spaniards should compensate the Amerindians for their looses anymore than the Incas or the Mayas should compensate tribes they conquered and absorbed.

I would beg to differ with you that particular point that it just was... nothing could be further from the truth it was organized theft and deception on a massive scale. one has only to read the congressional quarterlies, the memoirs of presidents and politicians and or any other history document between the united states of america and First Nations Peoples to see the truth of my words.
because one can lie and steal from those who are not accustomed to your ways does not mean that you should. not if you are any kind of decent and civilized human being. therein lies the problem once again... you argument relies on historical justification of conquest and the taking of what belongs to others and the ends do not justify the means, its just another transparent and pitiful excuse for greed, theft and genocide.

Thus is the nature of humanity. It is Survival of the Fittest in a sense. Societies which are more capable and more adaptable will eclipse lesser ones inevitably. This is the nature of competition. There are almost no parts of the earth where this is not true. Even thousands of years ago we saw this on tribal levels, and in the history of Pre-Columbian America this was so as well. In Central and Southern America certain tribes formed coalitions and in turn Empires and thus they conquered, assimilated and absorbed lesser ones.

About 1400 years ago this happened to my ancestors who were forced to accept Islam and Islamic Culture and Arab Identity, though they are not Arabs, they identify as such.

Competition, survival of the fittest is one of the laws of nature. Without competition the human race would not be as it is today, without competition Neanderthals would still walk Europe and Central Asia, and immigrants from Africa (Cro-Magnom man) would never have displaced them. Without competition we would not have formed the mental faculties selecting for higher intellegience and ingenuity.

Right or wrong this is law the of nature, survival of the fittest organism or in the human context, tribe, coalition,nation or empire.

For better or worse, humans as we exist today have been designed by the forces of competition. Without competition humans probably wouldn't exist today. We would have been conquered by our environment long ago.

"We would have been conquered by our environment long ago."

This is such an absolute in the western way of thinking. i find it amusing because when the environment wants it wrecks the indestuctible built by the brighest most technologically advanced human being and usually in a matter of moments. i have no desire to conqueor my environment but to live within it because i understand my place is within the circle not uselessly trying to control what no human being will ever be able to control... the natural environment. for in the end i understand i am just a pitiful human being who is here by the will of Creator.

You have done an exemplary job of taking my quote out of context. Allow me to elaborate if you will.

"For better or worse, humans as we exist today have been designed by the forces of competition. Without competition humans probably wouldn't exist today. We would have been conquered by our environment long ago."

What I meant by this was that competition, among other things, selects for the best possible genes, and characteristics in general to survive while weeding out the ones that are less conducive to survival. I meant that without competition, humans would not have been subject to the rigors of adaptation and perished long ago due to lack of adaptation.

Do not twist my statement by implying that i was opting for a "conquering" of nature. Rather, I was saying that humans would have been conquered by environment and nature due to lack of adaptation that competition provides.

Take Humans and Neanderthals for example. Humans had evolved/adapted superior cognitive skills to Neanderthals in an effort to cope with the harsh living conditions of the time, and thus this gave Homo Sapien Hominids the leading edge to thrive.

It seems to me that the more devoloped and geneticaly improved some creatures become the more vulnerable they become to the enviroment. Those who retain a sense of balance in the world seem to fare much better. I would argue the more advanced a society becomes the weaker and more geneticaly inferior its people become.

it was once said by an elder long ago and i paraphrase here... that the further a man removes himself from the nature the harder his heart becomes. i have found nothing but truth in that statement.

again you use history to justify vile and evil deeds. the fact remains that homo saipens genocided neanderthal man. yes i know the history or western civilization back to when alexander the great set a bad example for the rest of wasichu to follow. trust me i understand completely the law of nature where only the fittest survive. i have no disagreement with your argument El Corillio but neither will i allow the history of wasichu to cloud my judgment because these things that have been done in the name of progress... (progress for who i wonder?) are despicable deeds that are nothing to be proud of. western civilization has brought misery to the entire world and that is the one simple fact that remains underneath it all.

because european countries consume less and have a different government system than the united states does not lessen the amount of responsibility european countries have for setting right the things they helped to mangle and destroy in the first place. for over four hundred years we have faced the worst possible situations of survival that have faced any nations or cultures in the history of the world and yet we remain... still saying the same thing... how come you guys are like that?

To mention an "inconvenient truth":

The socialist regimes of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Mao's China murdered over 100 million people in the last century. Hardly a track record to be aspired to!

Because we are such a fragile species, the root of our bad behavior begins with a fear for our survival. Competition for food, water, shelter, sex then becomes intellectualized (our one area of strength versus other creatures.) Once a person can justify violence against others and Nature itself in the name of survival, everything else is sure to follow eventually, especially as the heart becomes harder and harder and the ability to see his Creator and his place in Creation becomes dimmer and dimmer.

K

I dont think that european countrys are in general different from the united states. The only difference is the size.
That's why politicians founded the european union as a counterbalance to the USA. The mentality is quite the same.
Nobody seems to be willing or able to learn from history. Even if you paint the western civilisation green, the greed
has not dissapeared.

I would have take a tangent somewhere between Ghostwarrior and ElCriollo. Very much in support of Ghostwarrior but taking a new direction.

Survival includes or presupposes evolution. Humanity may have devolved to the point where it can destroy itself and its environment. If it destroys it's environment, it certainly cannot be called "fit". Nor can the notion "Survival of the Fittest" be applied. In fact it can be shown to be responsible for the destruction of at least one species, depending on how far the notion is allowed to rule. We know many more species have gone under the wheels of european expansion of that "civilization".

However, knowing the immense capacity first nations people have for acceptance of the creators path for living things, I must look for an evolution that does indeed make the human species more fit. Time shows us there are mutually beneficial aspects, of course only after disasters indescribable cause suffering and destruction on the same scale.

So now I must approach the concept that both the people of Turtle Island and those crossing the Atlantic westward trampling them are going to learn something beneficial about life that will enhance their survival AND evolution. Consider the uses of the human mind for survival as an aspect of evolution. Here we must acknowledge the crusades of europe where people were persecuted for using the mind in ways that kept them independent but what the crusaders would call barbaric, just like the first people they met on continent they pretended to discover when going west.

So the guns, germs and steel worked their ways but the crusading colonizers are taking it way too far and now cannot control themselves and are destroying that which is vital. They are global leaders of another form of barbarism that may necessitate the destruction of the environment or all life in warfare.

Unfit for evolution.

What we have are two different paradigms. One spiritual using receptors of the mind to gather information that creates invisible rewards to living that are more meaningful than gold. Love. Love made the First People strong with their knowledge of themselves and each other as living beings. They have respect for all aspects of themselves as beings. The reptile, dangerous and violent only needing the sun for warmth, the mammal who could find it hibernating in a cave or curled up with its own kind in a hollow. Then the human that could see the lizard and the coyote and know them for what they are, and love them as a necessary part of a natural system of balance. Love them while using the human capacity for understanding to use their own purposes to limit the lizards control for the purposes of the human animal.

The other having a intellect that instead of contemplating the possibilities of balance, as love might perceive it, is a complete tool of its own lizard mind which uncontrollably works to destroy itself and the environment it depends on. Very unfit for survival. In fact working tangibly against it on a very large, permanent scale.

The social practices of trance induction and uses of the unconscious mind to create self control and behaviors that are sustainable are what europeans need and First Nation people have it, However, because europeans in their religious zeal have been killing the people of Turtle Island with abandon for a few centuries because of their use of the unconscious, getting the First Nation people to help Americans who realize the depth of the problem is going to require mass unity rejecting european spirituality and accepting that of Indigenous people.

A gesture of solidarity in the action of reparations towards Fist Nation people will be needed. Respect for their spiritual ways that include psychology, anthropology and sociology are going to be pre requisite. White folks have lots to do IF they expect First Nation people to help with the problems created by european mentality.

Early anatomically correct humans who leap frogged from Africa did not "genocide" the Neanderthals per se. Rather, they out competed Neanderthals for much the same resources and food staples, and they adapted to the changing environment of the time much better due to their superior intellegience.



It sounds here like you are just blaming Western Civilization for what Alexander did without understanding the context of his actions. At the time, the area that is now Greece was compromised of several different city states and kingdoms, they were at war with the then Persian Empire which was one of the worlds largest. It was either the Persian Empire or the Greeks that would have been taken down. You can't blame one competitor for out competing its rival. The Persian Empire would have readily done much the same thing to the Greeks given the opportunity. Moreover the Persians tried many times and nearly succeeded in that task.




First, no one in Europe has any responsibility for the actions of previous generations. Do the descendants of Inca bear any responsibility for their forefathers having conquered lesser tribes and taking over their territories all those hundreds upon hundreds of years ago?

Second, I have already explained that conquering is a natural part of humanity. If it wasn't the Europeans who conquered the America's then it would have been someone else, or The Americas would have been consumed and conquered by native grown empires such as the Aztecs and the Maya who were already in the process of acquiring territory and conquering other more subversive tribes. Human history is awash with different groups conquering and defeating lesser groups. There is no logic in choosing one group to get reparations for something that happened hundreds and thousands of years ago. And if there was, then by that logic every different group who was ever wronged in the history of humanity should get reparations. I guess that means that the Persians should give reperations to the Greeks, the Greeks to the Persians, The Arabs to the Kurds, The Incas,Mayas and Aztecs to the tribes they conquered, the Huns to Rome for pillaging Europe, The Romans for annexing territories all around the Mediterrean, The Ethiopians to the Bantus, The Bantus to all the other African groups they displaced. I could go on. lol

History is full of less capable people who were taken over by more dominate ones. That is practically the history of all of Humanity let alone Europe.

Europe should no more give reparations to the Indians then should Japan give reparations to the Chinese, Koreans, and all the Pacific Islands they conquered and dominated.

Maybe Italy should give reparations to the all the former vassal states and provinces of the Roman Empire that they had all those thousand years ago?

Or maybe Morocco should give Spain reparations for taking over Spain for hundreds of years? Come on, that is not realistic and you know it. Humanities history is full of Tribes, Clans, nations, Empires and what not taking over each other. Even Meso-american and South Americans did this.

You act like Natural Selection is just a sedimentary process that has ended, it is not. If lets say any Civilization destroys its environment to the point where it can no longer thrive, but instead it withers to a shell of its former self, it will eventually be replaced by something more viable. This is true of Western Civilization as it is true of any other. If they can adapt and mend the circumstances, then they will go on thriving.

If not, we have plenty of historical precedences that show what will happen. Let us not forget the Sumerians, one of the worlds first civilizations which sewed its own destruction by unknowingly poisoning their soil and agriculture lands with poorly done irrigation techniques.

If Western or any civilization for that matter fails to mend their ways, then logic dictates they will go the way of the Sumerians and be replaced with something more viable.



You think that the Crusaders were attacking people who were trying to stay independent?

This is an outright lie. Before the Crusaders, The Levant and the Al-Sham region was taken, conquered, annexed whatever word you will use, by the Islamic Empire. The Islamic empire I will remind you conquered much of Western Asia and Africa. The Islamic Empire had its borders at the Pyrenees mountains in France, and at the Himalayan Mountains bordering China. This empire was probably the biggest to have ever existed at the time. It traversed well over three continents.

The area the crusaders invaded was already invaded by the expansion of The Islamic Empire. You make it seem like the Levant was independent and free before the Crusaders arrived on the map.

I am not defending th crusaders, rather I am exposing the historical inaccuracy of your assertions.




If the West goes the way of the Sumerians, destruction by their own hand, so be it. That is part of the process of evolution and paradigm change.




If you are taking about the ills of uncontrolled Industrialization, know that many nations of the world are moving away from it. Northern European and East Asian countries being the leaders in the development of new technologies. Back during the Industrial Revolution, people did not know the problems that would arise from it, but now we know and people are moving towards something new.

Either they will have to embrace these new technologies and management techniques or they will perish as a result.




Why should Americans reject one silly outlandish dogma (Christianity) only to embrace another?



Spiritual ways? subconscious and unconscious states of mine to achieve balance?

It sounds like you are preaching new age pseudo-Science and Bull plop no offense. People do not need to embrace the tribal mythologies of the Amerindians or of anyone else for that matter.

you are a funny little man el crillilo i find your posts amusing because your view is so euro-centric and that is exactly why the world is in the state it is in now. going by the same lame logic that you just used... i didn't sign no treaty either so i should imagine there will be a mass exodus from the americas of non-indigenous peoples. enjoy your long lost family and friends oh yeah they will probably be bringing several million africans, asians, arabs, and others with them. so i hope your little socialist country can handle all that... oh yeah i forget you are european you guys can handle anything... except the truth.

Have you no logical rebuttal to my arguments? Clearly not, lest you would have made an articulate rebuttal, instead what I find before me is a man with no articulate counter argument. Prove me wrong by countering my argument. Am I to take the fact that you have resorted to insulting me as a concession to your defeat?

For more information, read my previous response to you that you have not countered.


And for your information, I am neither European nor of European origin. I am a Canadian of Non-European origin.

In the interest in an honest and fair debate, I will ask you to respond and counter my arguments in full, as I have done to your arguments. Counter those arguments from my previous response, Counter those that you deem to be false. If you do not, I will take this as a concession to your "verbal defeat" so to speak. I find it ironic that you claim to be the harbinger of defeat whilst you cannot defend your arguments, instead you resort to a petty attack.

EDIT:Ghost Warrior here are some words that you posted in another thread stop jumping all over the forum and when others respond to you do them the courtesy of sticking to the original subject because changing the subject is a form of concession that your argument is weak.


Please do not be a hypocrite, honor these words. I know that you are a man of integrity.


Regards,

El Criollo

EL I have to agree with GW except you would only be amusing if your logic were not twisted. I think you can no more understand us than we can understand you. Perhaps you will someday gain a level of understanding that will make you actually make you sound logical to people who base their logic in their lifeways and traditions. You maybe a genius by white standards but you sure do sound foolish to me.

Unfortunately he speaks some partial truth gentlemen. I do not agree with some of his points. But historically people have always been displaced. I think our main source of contempt comes from the fact our displacer is white. If he had similar skin to us, and culture I do not believe this would even be an issue of suppression. I understand what is at work here. One side’s attempt of self preservation is logical and therefore overrides the will of Mother Nature. Even our Grandmother Earth can sometimes be harsh, brute, and relentless. Whole populations have been broken like shrapnel by storms, disease, death, famine, and war. We have been displaced. This is not a non-natural thing. In fact our people have displaced others if you look at it. There were several groups here that resided in the Americas long before us with different languages and cultures. Yet there was not crime in our cultures displacing them.

So if we have a problem with displacement, how will we defy the odds? How can we over turn what we hate so much? How will we defy this displacement? What sacrifices are we willing to make in order to achieve nationhood, and prowess? I certainly don’t see this happening by asking, it is inherently in human nature to take and not to give. Go to any ghetto; the reservation; the hood; shanty towns; you name all have this principle at work. And what are we natives in the Americas then a string of self preserving ghettos? Sounds harsh, but true.

I see a two-edged sword here. I argue if the white man wanted us gone, he would have had our necks long ago. We can only properly defy nature by following its rules. Unfortunately we natives do not believe in one of nature's harshest rules, survival of the fittest. Hundreds of species have died in the past thousand years, not by man's hands, but by the will of nature. Are we to go against this natural cycle? If so, I find this balance principle to be greatly flawed. We natives must understand our part in nature; if we are to defy displacement we must then defy nature. We must go against several of our principles. Nothing will ever be given to us. It is simply not reasonable to rely on such. In other words, we must fight for our survival. All species must do this. We are not different. I see what El Crillo is saying, I get his message.

Unfortunately "white man" isn't the only criminal. People hate me for blaming the victims. But Ghost Warrior, Storm Rider, no one gives you anything. Europe will never give us reparations, nor will America. It is not in their personal interest of self preservation and control over these lands. To argue such a point is futile. If we want back what is ours, we must take, whether it is peaceful or by force is our decision. Call me a traitor, a deceiver, what have you. But we must collectively work together in order to fight for our survival. It is as simple as that. There can be no other way to describe this truth. I love my people, but we no longer should wait, or expect anyone to do anything. It is not in the interest of the imperator. It never has, and it never will be. So therefore we must do as we can, and we must slowly inch back on what we believe to be ours. In the end we weren’t give land, they weren’t give land, but we both took it. It is as simple as that. So if we want the land back, well, we gotta take it back.

the problem with what you ask el crillio is that your mind is not open and therefore any intelligent discourse between the two of us is just not possible. my people had a way of life that sustained them for thousands of years without having to run all over the world in search of shiny rocks and better ways to kill fellow human beings because they coveted the shiny rocks of others. because when you strip everything else away that is all that remains at the core of so called "western civilization" i find nothing great or worthy in any thing they have endeavoured to do because it is all centered around consume, destroy, control. these are things i have no interest in or even in discussing for that matter.