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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Okay, pahanna, just the fatcats.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
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pahanna wrote:
Lostspirit, i did not answer your queston, where is the communism. It is in the highway and road system that has been built. It is also in the county and tribal functions that provide services to the people. My point in this discussion is to clarify this communist/capitalist paradigm in this new age.Granted i am on the ruling class shit list because a UFO showed up and scared the shit out of them and they been badmouthing me ever since, and before when i got involved in the herbal medicine movement and before that when i would not get involved in the cocaine for guns issue.This capitalist/communist issue is behind every political front to one side oe the other and to me there is a balance that was tribally maintained and is now being manipulated with psycobabble that keeps people confused. I read where a Cherokee medicine man saw what what was coming and he told the people to get rid of evrything the whiteman brought including cats. I am stopping here for comment.
pahanna it would seem to me that in broad generalities even the constitution starting with the preamble is communist: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

But really the capitalism/communism issue is really just smoke covering the real issue; the haves and the have nots. How did George Orwell put it in Animal Farm? "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." What is the difference between that and the 'job creators' (they can't even be called rich anymore) who are nothing more than an autocratic collection of rulers trickling down peanuts to the masses? Both count on 'bread and circuses' to keep the population happy and in line (free wifi anyone, want to watch some football?).

In my opinion the highway and road system are pure capitalism. Through taxes of many, under the gauze being able to move the military in case of war, it is also a way for the capitalist to move their goods cheaply thus insuring more profit. The same thing could be said of the railroads. Both systems require cheap or slave labor and free natural resources.

Look at the last two summer olympics. One in a 'communist' state and the other in a 'capitalistic' state. Both used free resources and labor. This year in england they had people sign up for jobs in security. Then they told the people they were hired but would not receive any pay, just a good recommendation on their next job. Very, very few took them up on the offer and walked out. The british military had to be brought in to provide that security. At the hotel for the olympic officials there was supposed to be 70 security employees. On the first day, before the military came in, there were two security people there one of which was arrested for pot. Now, I don't watch the olympics because it is nothing more than a corporate wet dream. And again it is nothing more than the 'bread and circuses' fed to the masses to keep them happy and under control.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:35 pm 
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"We the People." They stole that. "We" is not a word the Europeans are too found of......rather I, I, I, me, me, mine.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:39 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
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Location: north carolina
good posts yall, i hear the nearsighted bafoons are fixing to get caught in their own trap


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
pahanna, I received this as an e-mail from one of my brothers. I am posting it here because of the Cherokee Will Rogers. That and because it seems to fit this discussion:


A Wonderful Compilation of Essential Truths:

If God wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates. ~ Jay Leno

The problem with political jokes is they get elected. ~ Henry Cate, VII

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. ~ Aesop

If we got one-tenth of what was promised to us in these State of the Union speeches, there wouldn't be any inducement to go to heaven. ~ Will Rogers

Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river. ~ Nikita Khrushchev

When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President; I'm beginning to believe it. ~ Clarence Darrow

Why pay money to have your family tree traced; go into politics and your opponents will do it for you. ~ Author unknown

Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. ~ John Quinton

Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~ Oscar Ameringer

I offer my opponents a bargain: if they will stop telling lies about us, I will stop telling the truth about them. ~ Adlai Stevenson, campaign speech, 1952

A politician is a fellow who will lay down your life for his country. ~ Tex Guinan

I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians. ~ Charles de Gaulle

Instead of giving a politician the keys to the city, it might be better to change the locks. ~ Doug Larson

There ought to be one day -- just one -- when there is open season on senators. ~ Will Rogers


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:32 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQdC-e82gmk Here is a video of George Carlin in 1999 about airport securities.He predicts the future well.Funny video!!


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:04 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
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Location: north carolina
a bobcat pissed in my frontyard one time shoo wheee, worsr than talking about capitalism/communism, the only daylight i see is in self sufficiency promoting


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:29 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
pahanna wrote:
a bobcat pissed in my frontyard one time shoo wheee, worsr than talking about capitalism/communism, the only daylight i see is in self sufficiency promoting


What you are mentioning pahanna is something called communitarianism. This idea is gaining a lot of steam with people now adays. There is a movement to localize the production of goods and services that people need. However, I will warn everyone including you that communism is most likely not what you believe it to be. And it is normal to mistake it because there is a fair amount of bias and misinformation about the topic due to 50 years of ideological war with the Soviet Union.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:47 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
Walti that is why i will not speak in those terms unless thet are applied together, because 2 me to speak of only one by itself is extremist and not reality based, as a individual human we are capitalistic and communistic in my opinion, dualistic in nature like and a part of our spiritual/material being


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:35 am 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
I've actually seen quite a few interesting documentaries on the concept of communitarianism. I think most Indian societies would benefit from a socio-economic system based in this form than mere capitalism or communism. Most Indians are communal in nature and thus a system where Wal-Marts roam wouldn't be beneficial to anyone. I actually like the idea of communitarianism. Btw, has anyone else heard of arcology around here? It's an interesting concept for creating clean and green cities of the future. I just think its an interesting topic. If you want me to post reliable sources I'm willing to.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
WalLiDruDumA wrote:
Btw, has anyone else heard of arcology around here? It's an interesting concept for creating clean and green cities of the future. I just think its an interesting topic. If you want me to post reliable sources I'm willing to.


Wali, I have heard of arcology in only a couple of videos I've watched. That and the fact that China a few years ago built an entire city using the most up to date environmental methods known. It was created as a model for new cities everywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
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American style democracy, and we're spreading it:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-n ... ut-borders


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
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"While you may get free wifi from your neighbor you will subject yourself to spying. Google has already been charged with that and were fined about three seconds worth of profit."

OK, OK, pahanna, the states got google for four seconds worth if profit too. They just have to split it 37 ways:

http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/0 ... snhp&pos=7


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:59 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
Lostspirit, i shouldnt have been bragging, i lost that connection the night before christmas, i go to the library now, i tried to buy access from a twirp neighbor and it didnt go well, maybe part of Creators plan


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:00 pm 
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pahanna, maybe your neighbor's a twirp. I have problems getting online because I have to use dial-up. It's a pain in the ass. I wish I could read the site Lostspirit posted but it takes two damn long for this computer to access it. If google was fined for spying, whose spying on google? Everyone is spying on everyone. I don't care. All I want to do is make pumpkin bread :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:20 pm 
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On a more serious note, it looks as if the us continues in their malicious manuevers to destroy indigenous peoples across the globe: "This week, Maduro also said Venezuela will set up a formal inquiry into claims that Chavez's cancer was the result of poisoning by his enemies abroad." http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... E720130313


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
lilac wrote:
I wish I could read the site Lostspirit posted but it takes two damn long for this computer to access it.

Here you go lilac:

By Bob Sullivan, Columnist, NBC News

Google has agreed to pay $7 million to settle a lawsuit filed by 37 states and the District of Columbia over the firm’s vacuuming of data from home Wi-Fi networks around the world. The settlement ends a long chain of U.S. government legal actions against Google in what has become known as the "Wi-Spy" scandal, but Google still faces numerous legal challenges in Europe and elsewhere.


Twitter Follow @RedTapeChron

Between 2008 and 2010, Google's Street View cars, designed to take detailed block-by-block pictures, had an added feature -- they collected data broadcast out of users' homes from unsecured Wi-Fi networks. At the time, most home routers didn't come equipped with encryption by default, so the data haul was enormous, and raised numerous privacy issues.

Google has admitted its mistake, but maintained that the collection wasn't illegal because the data was collected from public locations and broadcast by the victims in plain text. Still, the episode has been embarrassing for the company, and it has repeatedly said it has implemented new procedures to prevent a similar episode.

The most disturbing part of the Wi-Spy scandal is that Google blames it on a rogue engineer, though according to an investigation conducted by the Federal Communications Commission, the engineer told others at the company about the data collection. It's alarming to think about the privacy disasters that could be created by a rogue employee or group of employees who work inside a company with massive data collection power, like Google. The FCC fined Google $25,000 for allegedly obstructing its investigation, but took no further action against the company.

“Consumers have a right to protect their vital personal and financial information from improper and unwanted use by corporations like Google,” said New York Attorney General Schneiderman in a statement about the attorneys general settlement. “This settlement addresses privacy issues and protects the rights of people whose information was collected without their permission. My office will continue to hold corporations accountable for violating the rights of New Yorkers.”

Google agreed to destroy the data as part of the settlement and to launch an employee privacy training program that it must continue for 10 years.

"We work hard to get privacy right at Google. But in this case we didn't, which is why we quickly tightened up our systems to address the issue," Google said in a statement to NBC News. "The project leaders never wanted this data, and didn't use it or even look at it. We're pleased to have worked with Connecticut Attorney General George Jepsen and the other state attorneys general to reach this agreement."

The Electronic Privacy Information Center maintains a detailed list of legal actions in the Wi-Spy scandal, including links to details on ongoing investigations around the globe.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
lilac wrote:
On a more serious note, it looks as if the us continues in their malicious manuevers to destroy indigenous peoples across the globe: "This week, Maduro also said Venezuela will set up a formal inquiry into claims that Chavez's cancer was the result of poisoning by his enemies abroad." http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... E720130313
lilac, there have been articles about this all over. To some it is not a matter of if but when.


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
Greg Palast reviews the extraordinary career of Venezuelan President and Robin Hood figure Hugo Chavez, how he has cheated kidnap and assassination and may yet cheat death by maintaining his accomplishments.

Venezuelan President Chavez once asked me why the US elite wanted to kill him. My dear Hugo: It's the oil. And it's the Koch Brothers - and it's the ketchup.

[As a purgative for the crappola fed to Americans about Chavez, my foundation, The Palast Investigative Fund, is offering the film, The Assassination of Hugo Chavez, as a free download here. Based on my several meetings with Chavez, his kidnappers and his would-be assassins, it was filmed for BBC Television. DVDs also available.]

Reverend Pat Robertson said,

Hugo Chavez thinks we're trying to assassinate him. I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it.

It was 2005 and Robertson was channeling the frustration of George Bush's State Department. Despite Bush's providing intelligence, funds and even a note of congratulations to the crew who kidnapped Chavez (we'll get there), Hugo remained in office, re-elected and wildly popular.

But why the Bush regime's hate, hate, hate of the president of Venezuela?

Reverend Pat wasn't coy about the answer: It's the oil.

This is a dangerous enemy to our South controlling a huge pool of oil.

A really big pool of oil. Indeed, according to Guy Caruso, former chief of oil intelligence for the CIA, Venezuela holds a recoverable reserve of 1.36 trillion barrels, that is, a whole lot more than Saudi Arabia.

If we didn't kill Chavez, we'd have to do an "Iraq" on his nation. So the Reverend suggests,

We don't need another $200 billion war.... It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

Chavez himself told me he was stunned by Bush's attacks: Chavez had been quite chummy with Bush Senior and with Bill Clinton.

So what happened to change Clinton's hugs-and-kisses policy to Bush's shoot-to-kill? Here's the answer you won't find in The New York Times:

Just after Bush's inauguration in 2001, Chavez's congress voted in a new "Law of Hydrocarbons." Henceforward, Exxon, British Petroleum, Shell Oil and Chevron would get to keep 70 percent of the sales revenues from the crude they sucked out of Venezuela. Not bad, considering the price of oil was rising toward $100 a barrel.

But to the oil companies, which had bitch-slapped Venezuela's prior government into giving them 84 percent of the sales price, a cut to 70 percent was "no bueno." Worse, Venezuela had been charging a joke of a royalty - just 1 percent - on "heavy" crude from the Orinoco Basin. Chavez told Exxon and friends they'd now have to pay 16.6 percent.

Clearly, Chavez had to be taught a lesson about the etiquette of dealings with Big Oil.

On April 11, 2002, President Chavez was kidnapped at gunpoint and flown to an island prison in the Caribbean Sea. On April 12, Pedro Carmona, a business partner of the US oil companies and president of Fedecamaras, the nation's chamber of commerce, declared himself President of Venezuela - giving a whole new meaning to the term, "corporate takeover."

US Ambassador Charles Shapiro immediately rushed down from his hilltop embassy to have his picture taken grinning with the self-proclaimed "president" and the leaders of the coup d'état.

Bush's White House spokesman admitted that Chavez was, "democratically elected," but, he added, "Legitimacy is something that is conferred not by just the majority of voters." I see.

With an armed and angry citizenry marching on the presidential palace in Caracas ready to string up the coup plotters, Carmona - the Pretend President from Exxon - returned his captive, Chavez, back to his desk within 48 hours. (How? Get The Assassination of Hugo Chavez, the film that expands on my reports for BBC Television. It's free for the next few days here, thanks to the generosity of donors to our foundation.)

Chavez had provoked the coup not just by clawing back some of the bloated royalties of the oil companies. It's what he did with that oil money that drove Venezuela's 1% to violence.

In Caracas, I ran into the reporter for a TV station whose owner is generally credited with plotting the coup against the president. While doing a publicity photo shoot, leaning back against a tree, showing her wide-open legs nearly up to where they met, the reporter pointed down the hill to the "ranchos," the slums above Caracas, where shacks, once made of cardboard and tin, where quickly transforming into homes of cinder blocks and cement.

"He [Chavez] gives them bread and bricks, so they vote for him, of course." She was disgusted by "them," the 80 percent of Venezuelans who are negro e indio (black and Indian) - and poor. Chavez, himself negro e indio, had, for the first time in Venezuela's history, shifted the oil wealth from the privileged class that called themselves "Spanish," to the dark-skinned masses.

While trolling around the poor housing blocks of Caracas, I ran into Arturo Quiran, a local merchant seaman, and no big fan of Chavez. But over a beer at his kitchen table, he told me,

Fifteen years ago under [then-President] Carlos Andrés Pérez, there was a lot of oil money in Venezuela. The 'oil boom' we called it. Here in Venezuela there was a lot of money, but we didn't see it.

But then came Hugo Chavez and now the poor in his neighborhood, "get medical attention, free operations, x-rays, medicines; education also," he said. "People who never knew how to write, now know how to sign their own papers."

Chavez's Robin Hood thing, shifting oil money from the rich to the poor, would have been grudgingly tolerated by the US. But Chavez, who told me, "We are no longer an oil colony," went further - too much further, in the eyes of the American corporate elite.

Venezuela had landless citizens by the millions - and unused land by the millions of acres tied up, untilled, on which a tiny elite of plantation owners squatted. Chavez's congress passed a law in 2001 requiring untilled land to be sold to the landless. It was a program long promised by Venezuela's politicians at the urging of John F. Kennedy as part of his "Alliance for Progress."

Plantation owner Heinz Corporation didn't like that one bit. In retaliation, Heinz closed its ketchup plant in the state of Maturin and fired all the workers. Chavez seized the Heinz plant and put the workers back on the job. Chavez didn't realize that he'd just squeezed the tomatoes of America's powerful Heinz family and Mrs. Heinz' husband, Sen. John Kerry (now, Obama's nominee for US Secretary of State).

Or, knowing Chavez as I do, he didn't give a damn.

Chavez could survive the ketchup coup, the Exxon "presidency," even his taking back a piece of the windfall of oil company profits, but he dangerously tried the patience of America's least-forgiving billionaires: the Koch Brothers.

How? Well, that's another story for another day. [Watch this space. Or read about it in the book, Billionaires & Ballot Bandits.

Elected presidents who annoy Big Oil have ended up in exile - or coffins: Mossadegh of Iran after he nationalized BP's fields (1953), Elchibey, president of Azerbaijan, after he refused demands of BP for his Caspian fields (1993), President Alfredo Palacio of Ecuador after he terminated Occidental's drilling concession (2005).

"It's a chess game, Mr. Palast," Chavez told me. He was showing me a very long and very sharp sword once owned by Simon Bolivar, the Great Liberator. "And I am," Chavez said, "a very good chess player."

In the film The Seventh Seal, a medieval knight bets his life on a game of chess with the Grim Reaper. Death cheats, of course, and takes the knight. No mortal can indefinitely outplay Death who, this week, Chavez must know, will checkmate the new Bolivar of Venezuela.

But in one last move, the Bolivarian grandmaster plays a brilliant endgame, naming Vice-President Nicolas Maduro, as good and decent a man as they come, as heir to the fight for those in the "ranchos." The 1% of Venezuela, planning on Chavez's death to return them the power and riches they couldn't win in an election, are livid with the choice of Maduro.

Chavez sent Maduro to meet me in my downtown New York office back in 2004. In our run-down detective digs on Second Avenue, Maduro and I traded information on assassination plots and oil policy.

Greg Palast (on left) and investigations team meets with Venezuelan Vice-President Nicolas Maduro (on right), New York, 2004. (Photo: Richard Rowley)Greg Palast (on left) and investigations team meets with Venezuelan Vice-President Nicolas Maduro (on right), New York, 2004. (Photo: Richard Rowley)

Even then, Chavez was carefully preparing for the day when Venezuela's negros e indios would lose their king - but still stay in the game.

Class war on a chessboard. Even in death, I wouldn't bet against Hugo Chavez.

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/13800 ... ugo-chavez


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 Post subject: Re: capatalism / communism discussion
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:31 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
Lostspirit wrote:
Just after Bush's inauguration in 2001, Chavez's congress voted in a new "Law of Hydrocarbons." Henceforward, Exxon, British Petroleum, Shell Oil and Chevron would get to keep 70 percent of the sales revenues from the crude they sucked out of Venezuela. Not bad, considering the price of oil was rising toward $100 a barrel.

But to the oil companies, which had bitch-slapped Venezuela's prior government into giving them 84 percent of the sales price, a cut to 70 percent was "no bueno." Worse, Venezuela had been charging a joke of a royalty - just 1 percent - on "heavy" crude from the Orinoco Basin. Chavez told Exxon and friends they'd now have to pay 16.6 percent.

pahanna, the reason I posted this article on this thread is that before I started informing myself with better sources the mainstream media echoed the cry of Chavez being a 'communist.' From the way they were speaking I was under the impression that he had nationalized the oil fields and production. And yet at the same time read how Chavez had donated heating oil to poor residents here (it became VERY confusing which is what they want). But it seems that if you want more than than the US and the oil companies want to give you, well, you are a damned 'communist.'

When Chavez died I was more than a bit surprised to find out through CENSORED NEWS that in 'Indian Land' he was a hero and friend because it was they that were receiving a good portion of those donations.

Sorry about your wifi man.


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