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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
Wali, you wrote"Modern science has nothing to do with colonization or dehumanizing individuals (although crooked people with crooked beliefs do use science)."

I responded with "I would have to humbly disagree with that statement. It has everything to do with colonization and dehumanizing individuals especially if they are the original inhabitants of these two continents."

You responded with "Again, please elaborate what you mean by this. If you don't provide evidence or examples then I have nothing to agree or disagree with you on. This may or may not be true in some cases. However, the problem I have with this statement is that is over generalized and it ignores the progress that has been made in terms of human relations because of science."

My problem is I cannot think of any examples of where science has not been used as an agent of colonization or dehumanization. Not to be a smart ass, but can you be more specific?


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:17 pm
Posts: 327
Hey Pahanna I have heard a lot about those little people and about them scaring the Cherokees.They say they live in caves on the sides of the mountains.They say they don't like to be disturbed.Even though they have a gentle nature that if you disturb them they will cast a spell on you.I have never saw a little person when I lived in the Smokies but I chased a black bear cub when I was two saying "Doggie,Doggie" It scared my mother to death.That was the first time I went to Cherokee.Is your 2nd wife Indian? Natahala is gorgeous.When we lived in the Smokies, it was in Cosby Tn. at English Mountain.At the top of our mountain you could see the National Park on one side and English Mountain on the other side.Our nearest neighbor was a mile away and I loved that.We lived not far from the NC border.Cosby has had a bad reputation of a place but we had no problems. It's considered the "Moonshine Capitol" of the United States.It is a very beautiful place,too.After Craig fell 30 ft. and I had cancer. It made us get down to our last dime and we didn't know where our next meal was coming from. We decided to sell the property and come back home.It sold in one week! I will be 59 in a few months and I have seen a lot,too.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:50 am 
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The lore and stories of the Little People predates the European invasion.Have you ever seen a foxfire?Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:03 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
i saw it at Boy Scout camp and then later on i know a man that makes it, it is generally white oak wood that has gotten rotten to a stage where it will become foxfire, the temperture has to be kinda warm, he would gather up some white oak that was getting rotten and put it in a bucket and sprinkle with water and cover it, he knew how to do it, he likes ,doing stuff like that, he and his wife had a puppet theater at one time, going around the schools doing puppet shows, he is a caracter and talented in carving, he made a sidecar for his motorcycle using a plastic 55 gal.drum and it looked store bought, he was friends with a Cherokee man trained in customs, i got to participate in Cherokee Fast several times, Wallace Black Elk came and did a sweatlodge at his place several years back before i met him, he went out west after selling one piece he had carved to the Smithsonian Institute and visited with Rolling Thunder at his camp, he knows all kinds of Celtic lore and said he found out he comes from the Black Elf Clan, he has carved stones setting in his yard he has set up, i saw him a couple months back and he said his wife bought him a DNA test for Christmas and it said 1/8 Indian, he dont follow herbal medicine much but he knows the plants, i kinda think he was afraid to get in that arena, we got a little issue there, the man that ran the fast didnt believe either, my mentor wouldnt go to the fast because he said a water fast these days is dangerous with all the pollution, he said you needed to use a liquid with plenty of minerals to wash out the toxins, that water fasting can drive pollution into the bone, my mentor was Cherokee from Oklahoma, he came to me after he passed more than one time, one time him and my dad came to me,i am pretty sure he is back and will be a great herbal healer,


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:17 pm
Posts: 327
Yeah after you do a fast if you don't put back in you pure food or water for awhile your sicknesses can come back on you 3 or 4 times stronger.We have one at work that is called the Master's Cleanse.It's with grade b organic maple syrup or you can use organic blackstrap molasses,cayenne pepper tincture and organic lemons.Use pure water and make a drink with this and drink every time you get hungry.The first day is rough.I did it one time for 3 days but it made me feel better.I know of people who have done it for 14 days or more.I think that is too much on your body but there is one woman who comes in the store that has gigantism.She's average in height but her hands and face and legs looked like a huge wrestler.I saw her before she did that cleanse and afterwards.She was weird looking before the cleanse and she was beautiful afterwards.She does it for 14 days whenever that comes back on her .Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:52 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
Wali,Everyone has their own beliefs and others may not believe as you do.Enjoy your own beliefs and share them with people who has the same interest as you.But you see no one here has those beliefs and after you realize that sometimes it is best to keep some things to yourself.Jennifer


Jen I respect your decision to not "believe" what I do. However, I must humbly disagree with your argument and say that my understanding of the world comes from facts not "beliefs". These facts have been verified by the best means possible and are the closet any human can responsibly get to the truth. I am much less worried about “belief” and much more worried about “truth” and knowledge. There is no greater tool in this world than knowledge and wisdom.

Other people do not share my view of the world, and this is fine. I only ask that these individuals who have no interest in learning the truth about evolution simply say “I don’t like evolution” and reframe from saying “evolution is fake” and then providing no logical evidence. Do not try to disprove fact with fiction. It makes for a bad argument. If you choose not to get informed about the opposing side then have the decency and respect to stay away from such a discussion that requires being informed. I have a feeling that your “beliefs” are what have led to your misunderstanding in the first place. One of the greatest hints you have given to me is the fact that you continuously lump western religion and science with one another.

They are not the same thing. They are completely separate. And those who practice or use the art of science don’t necessarily get along with those who practice the art of faith and religion. Your objections to evolution are not unique, nor are you the first person to get defensive and upset that their beliefs were under attack from logic. In fact, Christians and many indigenous people have this in common. The fear that science tries to dismiss what they have believed for so long.

I have a very unique set of spiritual beliefs. That are neither Christian nor indigenous. I believe it is the quest of all intelligent creatures to gain wisdom, knowledge, and inner enlightenment. That the duty of mankind is not to debunk spirituality but confirm it in the hopes that one day we can put a face to that which we all call the “great mystery”. God is not in the form of man or nature, but in a form which we cannot comprehend or understand, and as time progresses and technology moves forward, mankind will have the ability to touch the face of god.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:57 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Lostspirit wrote:
Wali,

Let me first start off with an apology. I was tired and shot from the hip. I should have said: Please read the book and then we might have a fuller conversation. If you ever read the book and feel the same way, dandy. But just as you said "Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I’m wrong." The same can be said of the out of Africa theory.


No need to apologize. Your comments were not taken in hostility.

Lostspirit wrote:
Now as far as the friend, I refuse to call him up or go see him when his wife is recovering from surgery and he is raising two small children from this family (he has older children in the 24 to 26 year old range) and a granddaughter in between his younger two children. I would doubt that he has papers or books since actually being with his children and giving them experiences is far more important to him than money. He is not in the position of "publish or perish." And if he does have any published works I would doubt it would be on this subject.


I don't believe that I've ever asked you to call him up and disturb him. I simply asked you to name him since he is an academia and all academians are on the public record so that their claims can be researched and refuted. If he is a geneticist as you claim he is, and then he would have published some work regarding evolutionary genetics which many geneticists are involved in or understand. Lack of this leads me to be skeptical.

Lostspirit wrote:
I have brought up the subject of genetics with him three times. The first was on the movie Jurassic Park. When he stated that it was an enjoyable movie but that could never happen I questioned him. For every objection I raised he would, as patiently as possible, try to explain to the dummy why this could not happen. Finally he said quite firmly "This is a subject I know something about and I'm telling you it could not happen as described in either the book or the movie."


But what exactly did he say? You’re not providing me with evidence that I can research and confirm or dispute in this case. You are simply saying that he raised objections every time you made a comment. I'm asking you what issues did you raise and what objections did he bring to the table? What exactly makes the movie unlikely? I can agree with him in some respects if you were to give me some actual examples. For example, being able to raise and culture lizards from amphibian DNA is complete bullocks. T-Rex most likely was not a scaly lizard, but a big feathery bird, etc. But what were his exact objections to the movie?

Lostspirit wrote:
The second time was discussing a (for lack of a better word) documentary that traced all humans to southern Africa and he did say "Well, that is one train of thought." That flew by me because I was seeking his opinion on the total documentary that had two living people that he claimed had the same genes as all American Indians, all Malaysians and all aborigines in Australia. When I finally got to the end of my description of this theory he said "And that's another train of thought." I didn't press him because who wants to try to have a discussion with a dummy and that is his area of expertise. I did it to him once I wasn't about to make him do it twice.


So basically he said nothing in this case?

Lostspirit wrote:
The third time I brought up genetics it was with a disclaimer. I said, "Putting aside everything about genetics that we have discussed (more like I listened and tried to argue stupid points) do you think man has a war gene." Holding his two small daughters on his lap he went off on pretty damning view of man saying, among many other things how man was the most destructive both to each other and the planet and all other species and he couldn't wait for man to die out. When he finished he said, "With that being said, yes, I do think man has a war gene." My interest was this: I have not found a culture yet that does not have some form of war. Could man actually have a war gene? Does he have proof? I kind of doubt it. I wasn't asking for empirical proof, only his opinion.


Well it is well known to evolutionary biologists that man and chimpanzees (our closest relatives) are some of the most violent species on the planet. Which leads us to believe that our common ancestor was just as violent. There have been several cases of chimp males "jumping" (or ganging up on which ever you'd like to use) lone or small groups of other chimp males. Humanity is not immune to this violent nature. However, no one knows (at least to my knowledge) why human and chimp males are so aggressive. Humans are quite destructive and benign, but unlike all other species on this planet mankind has a gift which no other species has, a choice. We can choose to be violent and destroy one another, or we can choose to cooperate and move forward. The solution to this issue is not scientific, but ethical and social in nature.

If your objections are not science, but the nature of mankind, then I certainly can agree with you on some things. I believe that most destruction comes from want and greed. The cure to the disease of greed I do not know, but I know part of the solution is to gain wisdom and knowledge.





Lostspirit wrote:
Wali, you wrote"Modern science has nothing to do with colonization or dehumanizing individuals (although crooked people with crooked beliefs do use science)."

I responded with "I would have to humbly disagree with that statement. It has everything to do with colonization and dehumanizing individuals especially if they are the original inhabitants of these two continents."

You responded with "Again, please elaborate what you mean by this. If you don't provide evidence or examples then I have nothing to agree or disagree with you on. This may or may not be true in some cases. However, the problem I have with this statement is that is over generalized and it ignores the progress that has been made in terms of human relations because of science."

My problem is I cannot think of any examples of where science has not been used as an agent of colonization or dehumanization. Not to be a smart ass, but can you be more specific?


If you can provide so many examples then please be responsible and provide one example. It should not be difficult to find an example which dehumanizes the individual since it is so common. Find a topic which you’d like to discuss and provide some reasonable links to back your claims, thanks.

Sincerely,

Wali


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:17 pm
Posts: 327
Wali,I don't like evolution.We all should be gaining wisdom,knowledge and inner enlightenment.One day I will be glad to see or to touch the face of God or as in the Cherokee language Unehanvhi. This we agree on.These are my beliefs,too.Jennifer


Last edited by Craig on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
Wali,

Let me be absolutely clear on this because you seem unable to provide one example to support your statement.

You want an example, OK here's a few: How about the science to brew alcohol? How about the science for oil drilling in Nigeria or the Amazon? How about the science for fracking? How about the science for immunizations for malaria in Africa where they didn't bother to change needles between patients and thus spread HIV? How about GMO foods?

What I want clear hear is this.................I'm done with this subject!


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:04 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Lostspirit wrote:
Wali,

Let me be absolutely clear on this because you seem unable to provide one example to support your statement.

You want an example, OK here's a few: How about the science to brew alcohol? How about the science for oil drilling in Nigeria or the Amazon? How about the science for fracking? How about the science for immunizations for malaria in Africa where they didn't bother to change needles between patients and thus spread HIV? How about GMO foods?

What I want clear hear is this.................I'm done with this subject!


I was originally planning to give another detailed objection to your statements, but on closer examination it would be best I did not. It would be a waste of time and energy. My statements are perceived as attacks. I might as well let the crows gawk another night, and let the hens come to roost. I must remember that I am only a guest here and that this place is not mine. I must respect the wishes of other people, no matter how frightening they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:15 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:24 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Kimberton Penna.
This post i find stikes me to speak....finally...been listening to the forums a long time now without speaking.....My aikido sensei who is 74 from japan,still lives there,we talked broken english at a sushi bar......he asked me why i have hair down to my a**...lol...i told him simply it wasnt meant to be cut,...or it would already be short....hoping he understood my reply without offence,...he asked me if i was american indian....i said ,it does exist in my genes....but i am just a white man who tans well.His next statement was he believes that the japanese were related to the american indian.He warmed up to me like we were old friends,everyone there was astonished at his actions as well as i....i was told by others at class later on that he has a germ phobia and never touches anybody without gloves.He had his arm around me like i was his grandson.Whenever we meet,he always remembers me and treats me the same each time.I just wanted to share that with yall,its the only time in my life that i felt proud to be a mix breed.....not the forum wannabe like i hear at times here.....and Wali....i will say that i couldnt say what you said in this thread any better!....finally some reason here...ty.....AVI


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:20 pm
Posts: 147
"The American Journal Jan.27,2012 on Native Americans origins.Now researchers are saying we might have come from Altai ,the southern part of Siberia.I wonder if that is true. Jennifer "

If it looks like horseshit and sounds like horseshit,then it's probably horseshit.

P.S.Welcome to the forum,Avi.Fresh perspectives always welcome.

_________________
"A people without history is like wind on the buffalo grass."- Teton Sioux proverb


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:52 am 
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There is a lot of manure in this world but if you search hard enough the truth will slap you in your face.So will the manure.Jennifer


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