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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Posts: 327
Yeah Let's end this subject Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
Jennifer, perhaps you should watch "Who really discovered america" on the history channel. IT talks about things that are similar in many cultures from around the world, that also exist in the americas. A nation along the california coast with words similar to the polyniseans for canoe, also a striking similar fish hook. Pottery shards from a community in ecuador with decorations that are exactly like decorations on pottery from the southern most island in Japan. Structures in mexico with asian elephant heads as decorations. The so called clovis point is nothing like projectile points in siberia. They more resemble the salutrian points from south west france. I watched a documentary many years ago about a nation in patagonia who were austrrailian abroiginal in origin, complete with the Dream time and Rainbow Serpent.

A client of mine, who is Jewish, read my book on the trail of the Hopi, I can not remember the name of it. Said it resembles the origins of the Hebrew people.

There are habitation sites in Brazil that are up to 55,000 years old. Dr' Louis Leaky, the famous anthropoligist worked at a dig site in southern california. He said some artifacts are as much as 250,000 years old. Mankind is far older than any scientist will ever admit.

Someone on this thread mentioned a "Great Flood". Is this the flood that flooded the Bosphrous strait in turkey? or the one that flooded the Persian gulf? or how about the flood that flooded the northwest central united states? These geologic events were caused by the melting glacers around teh world. Each of the peoples in each of the regions felt the entire world was flooded.

Perhaps all of the questions we all have will be answered when each of us walks that final trail, The one each living being walks eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
i had a dog i got from man in the country near here, the mother was a german shepard with 6 puppies, all of the pups had shepard markings except this one, he was redish brown and the other pups would not let him eat, the man said he thought she was got to by a fox and some of those pups had real narrow heads, my dog was real timid and was friends with a female shepard nearby, they used to run the woods together, she got hit by a car, i found her coming home from work, the next day i found him hit at the same place, i told these older guys i drank coffee with that i thought that maybe it was true and they laughed , but i saw those pups and the shape of their heads was fox looking, i have wondered where the rotweiler was breed, it looks more bear than wolf


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Y'all go to physorg.com Nov.16,2011 New Fossils of Oldest American Primate.The fossil was found in the Bighorn basin.They are saying it's about 55,000 years old.Talk to y'all later on another subject.This is really my last comment on this one.Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
it is interesting but it still sounds like a lot of guessing to me, the Hopi have lore of a great flood


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:46 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
Wali,Can I ask you what Indian tribe are you from?


I'm not from the Lakota and I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm just astonished that people who are so against something can't even say what the position is about. It shows willful ignorance or fear of some possibility. I'm not here to disrespect anyone’s' beliefs, but let’s please examine this. I ask for someone to refute evolution, saying that we are not monkeys is not a legitimate rebuttals because we AREN"T MOKEYS!!! I agree lol. What about evolution seems illegitimate to you? Please take the time to search and find the specific issue you have with evolution. Use a reputable source that can be quoted and refuted. In other words, make a sound and legit argument. That's all I ask. I'm not mad at you nor do I despise you. I'm just asking you to be rational and include all arguments when speaking.

Craig wrote:
Apes and humans do have a lot of similarities and we are related but we are not apes.


This is simply not true. We are technically apes. Even if you don't believe in evolution, humans have key anatomical similarities that firmly place us in the category of "great ape" or scientifically called (Hominidae: Orangutans, Chimps, Gorillas, and Humans). That's the equivalent of a man who has had a positive maternity test going onto Maury and denying he is the father, it simply ain't happening. We are related to Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans. No amount of fear, anger, or debate will change this fact.

Craig wrote:
Has a woman ever had a baby by a chimp?


Of course not, a woman can't have a baby from another species. That is contradictory to everything evolutionary biology is about. Evolution is not the study of how animals have babies from another species. It is the study of how species change and develop over time. Of course a woman can't have a chimp baby, nor can a chimp female have a human baby. Again, this is one of those issues where a Google search would've fixed any problems you might've had.

Craig wrote:
I don't know of anyone who has.Looks like someone would have already tried. God made us different.We can not have children with anyone else but with another human.That is why humans have their own DNA.DNA is accurate,I agree with that.Jennifer


So you would rather use a red herring than provide a logical argument? Of course humans for the most part can't have children with any other species than humans. However, when animals are in the same genus they can have children with one another. The offspring tend to be sterile. This is similar to what happens when a lion and a tiger have a child with one another. Cross breeding between animal species of the same genus happens frequently when animals are in captivity, but occurs rarely in the wild. What you are trying to say is that it is impossible for humans and chimps to have children, and to be honest no one knows. No person in recorded history has actually tried to conceive a child with a chimp. It may or may not be possible.

If you agree that DNA is accurate then will you also agree that humans and chimps at one point in time had a common ancestor? That is basically what the DNA tells us on record.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:02 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
pahanna wrote:
Wali, i know the scientific community has figured out a lot of things, nuclear energy shows that, but everything you just said is still theory and i dont buy it, now my brother got pissed off when i told him my theory, he said he thinks one of those apes learned how to make fire and we took off from there, and started burning the hair off i guess


It is a theory with a lot of evidence. Most things are simply theories when the time it would take to measure and verify the subject would take a minimum of hundreds of thousands of years. Humans simply haven't lived long enough to confirm or disprove whether or not evolution exists. Perhaps in the long and distant future mankind can verify whether or not evolution is a theory. We do know one thing however, that small changes do occur over time, science is confident of this. And all evolution is, is a series of small changes which eventually lead to much larger changes over time. I don't think it was right of your brother to get upset at you about it, but your brother knows which idea is more sound and logical. Your brother is a very down to earth individual. Can you blame him for choosing the more rational of two theories? You don’t buy it because to you evolution is unfortunately an invention of the white man.

Furthermore I ask of you, why are you willing to acknowledge part of science and ignore the other parts of science? Science uses the same basic principles for all of its disciplines. What makes one discipline less worthy than another?

pahanna wrote:
i am figuring that you are unemployed like i am right now and have a lot of time to talk about stuff like this, it would be nice if we got paid like some of the more famous scientists, like how old is the universe, it really isnt that important compared to deciding if global warming is real and doing something about it, Peace


I am not unemployed. I rarely come on the website. When I do come on the website I post frequently. I agree with the whole global warming thing and most scientists have spent their careers fighting against large corporations to make changes around. However, to you science and religion is the same thing. It has no difference or contrast. Regardless, the study of global warming which is also a science, has nothing to do with what we are debating right now. You are willing to acknowledge part of science but not the other half? Does this seem reasonable at all to you?


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:26 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Flip wrote:
There are habitation sites in Brazil that are up to 55,000 years old. Dr' Louis Leaky, the famous anthropoligist worked at a dig site in southern california. He said some artifacts are as much as 250,000 years old. Mankind is far older than any scientist will ever admit.


This is the part where you provide me with some extremely reliable evidence that suggests that mankind is older than 250’000 years old. There hasn’t been anything on record which suggests that mankind is any older than 300’000 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:20 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
Wali. we are arguing a mute point in my opinion, my theory includes kinship with apes, me and my wifes family went to the zoo near here several years ago, i was in front of a line of people seeing a gorilla that was in a cage that looked like Andy Griffiths jail house. He, the gorilla was sitting on a stack of tires in the front of the cage, when he heard the sounds of the people behind me he went to shaking his head like oh hell here they come,he got up and went to another stack of tires back in the corner. I thought to my self oh hell this guy is in jail. The zoo with help from a lot of people got him out of the jail and made him a pretty nice place and brought in some females and i was glad because seeing that gorilla in jail was depressing. I dont need a scientist to tell me what i felt about kinship. You and the evolutionists say we evolved from them . I say, who screwed the ape? I am done with this subject


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
i feel like it is important that something gets said as i am uncomfortable with my last post setting where it was, that issue is definatly something i do not want to dwell on and theorys are like assholes, everybody has got one, it like the one that asks if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it does it make a noise, my answer to that one is hell yea, now move on


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:39 pm
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Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
Wali, there are many documented sites in south america that are dated to at least 55,000 years old. Neanderthal man had existed for at leat 300,000 years, so has Peking man. there are other hominid species of man that are nearly older. This much is fact within the scientific community. There was tha Hobit found in Indonesia this past decade. This human species stood less than 4 ft tall.

Countless nations around the world have creation stories that states that the Earth has existed in 4 different ages. With the Hindu, the Earth is represented as a cow. At the end of each year, the cow loses a hair. At the end of each age, the cow loses a leg. When the cow is bald and with out legs, the cycle of the Earth will be over. If my memory serves me correct, I read a similar account in "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions". The Hopi also have a similar creation story of teh Earth being in 4 ages, as do the Maya. These stories talk of at the end of each age, mankind is nearly wiped from the face of the earth.

For more than a century, the europeans discounted all stories from China about a bear that was black and white that only ate plants. The europeans said it was only fanciful tales told by the native peoples. For more than a century the europeans discounted stories of a large man like beast in Africa. Also thought to be fanciful tales told by native peoples. Both of these creatures live in the forest of both continents. They live in our zoos.

Just because concrete evidence has yet to be found, does not mean it will never be found, or does not exist. In the past decade science has discovered 2 new hominid species that pre date the Neanderthal. These 2 new species made stone tools, as well as fire. They may not be "modern man" but they are man, none the less.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
ok, so i am here at this forum wether i got indian in me or not to find help on getting the low cost building system i got off and running cause i lived 4 years in one abd know what it will do, up to this point i have had partial interest in what one Cherokee mentor called new age dipshits,excuse my French which i got in my last name even though my moma said if if anyone asked to tell them i am Scotch-Irish who loved Indian stuff and liked to make things out of cornshucks whose sister i asked if we had Indian and said not that i know of but i would be proud if we did, my mama was from York Co. S.C. , i am feeling vibes right now and it might be cause i went and complained at the Lincoln County Historical Asso, that that got no Indian section in there, but we who have been activists know that they are still doing there thing, W said his thing and i agree with whoever said he is the village idiot. i am right now about 1/2 mi from where a decisive battle in the American Revolution took place which was on my ancestors land which i am pretty sure he lost because he sided with the British like the Cherokee did but i am not sure because nobody talks about that history but i am sure nobody in my family owns that land, my great great uncle on my dads side died whike captured by the yankees and George Custer was one of the last to see him alive who he knew thru going to West Point, his ketters he wrote back home are at UNC Chapel Hill and were published in i book in 1986 where i read them tho i knew i was kin to him cause my granny had a picture of him, he was her momas brother, but he did not like the blueblood yankees which was not people from up noth in general, he said they were greedy and they were evil, they cared more about money than they care about life / my grannys house was in the woods and i saw black,white,and indian come visit her


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
well Flip i done said enough on that issue but it seems to me there might be a missing link but damn if i know,


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:05 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
I will not push any further. I have a feeling that most are done with this topic and I will leave it. I'm not upset or angry. I am just confused why people decide to argue about things that they don't know about. They make illegitimate arguments that the other side never said or made. It is like no one wants to actually understand what is happening they just want to comment. This is a symbol of willful ignorance for the most part. If you don't like evolution, simply say I don't like evolution. Don't try to disqualify it with things that can't disqualify evolution such as faulty philosophical logic. "Theory" implies that an idea is solid and stands on tons of evidence, an idea is simply something conjured up by the mind which is unverified. Gravity is a theory yet it is understood that gravity exists. I am not saying that the sciences of evolution and anthropology are perfect, but they are better at describing what happened than all the religious myths ever conjured up. It is closer to the story of how mankind actually came to be than any other story created by man. This is not an issue of science or reality, but one of faith and belief.

And if evolution's truth is unappealing then I am no one to stop you. I just would've thought that Native Americans being so close to nature would be accepting of the idea that they once originated from it. I can't understand for the life of me what is wrong with originating from apes.

And lastly, please stop linking western religion to science. Christians hate scientists just as much as you guys. Do not link the two, they are separate and in fierce debate and competition.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:38 am 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:12 am
Posts: 95
food for thought .... ever wonder why dominant society has to dig and create therories about where people came from? .... why not just accept your beliefs and move on .... make the world a better place, practice your beliefs as it was your last day to breathe, and remember... don't sweat the petty stuff


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:15 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 50
Much wisdom and peace for those who follow your words...


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
ndnhorseman wrote:
food for thought .... ever wonder why dominant society has to dig and create therories about where people came from? .... why not just accept your beliefs and move on .... make the world a better place, practice your beliefs as it was your last day to breathe, and remember... don't sweat the petty stuff


What is petty to some is magnificent to others. Those who look towards the little and small things often live a full life. Word to the wise, an appeal to tradition is never a legitimate argument. Science is not an invention of the "dominant" society. In fact, it comes from ancient China. It can be used by anybody and is one of the most effective systems for learning and moving forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:17 pm
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Wali,Everyone has their own beliefs and others may not believe as you do.Enjoy your own beliefs and share them with people who has the same interest as you.But you see no one here has those beliefs and after you realize that sometimes it is best to keep some things to yourself.Jennifer


Last edited by Craig on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
i have met 3 people now that saw the Little People/ Leprachans that go way back in Cherokee and Irish lore and probably others, i knew the brother of a man, last name Martin, from Nantahala area who was a famous wood carver that said when he was young back in the 1920-30s he was in the woods and a lttle person came and told him to pick up a stick and a knife and start carving and he would make a living the rest of his life, to carve anything he wanted but lawyers and preachers, that was taboo, he did what he was told and built a nice brick house from his carving, his brother told me that he swore to it as the truth, my 2nd exwife said when she was 4 years old she saw these little people go walking by her around here, a guy from Texas said he saw one standing on a house gutter and he disappeared, someone from Oklahoma said he saw some little people out in California Nat. Forest


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
Wali,

Let me first start off with an apology. I was tired and shot from the hip. I should have said: Please read the book and then we might have a fuller conversation. If you ever read the book and feel the same way, dandy. But just as you said "Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I’m wrong." The same can be said of the out of Africa theory.

Now as far as the friend, I refuse to call him up or go see him when his wife is recovering from surgery and he is raising two small children from this family (he has older children in the 24 to 26 year old range) and a granddaughter in between his younger two children. I would doubt that he has papers or books since actually being with his children and giving them experiences is far more important to him than money. He is not in the position of "publish or perish." And if he does have any published works I would doubt it would be on this subject.

I have brought up the subject of genetics with him three times. The first was on the movie Jurassic Park. When he stated that it was an enjoyable movie but that could never happen I questioned him. For every objection I raised he would, as patiently as possible, try to explain to the dummy why this could not happen. Finally he said quite firmly "This is a subject I know something about and I'm telling you it could not happen as described in either the book or the movie."

The second time was discussing a (for lack of a better word) documentary that traced all humans to southern Africa and he did say "Well, that is one train of thought." That flew by me because I was seeking his opinion on the total documentary that had two living people that he claimed had the same genes as all American Indians, all Malaysians and all aborigines in Australia. When I finally got to the end of my description of this theory he said "And that's another train of thought." I didn't press him because who wants to try to have a discussion with a dummy and that is his area of expertise. I did it to him once I wasn't about to make him do it twice.

The third time I brought up genetics it was with a disclaimer. I said, "Putting aside everything about genetics that we have discussed (more like I listened and tried to argue stupid points) do you think man has a war gene." Holding his two small daughters on his lap he went off on pretty damning view of man saying, among many other things how man was the most destructive both to each other and the planet and all other species and he couldn't wait for man to die out. When he finished he said, "With that being said, yes, I do think man has a war gene." My interest was this: I have not found a culture yet that does not have some form of war. Could man actually have a war gene? Does he have proof? I kind of doubt it. I wasn't asking for empirical proof, only his opinion.


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