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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:30 am 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Lostspirit wrote:
3


Is this your final answer? Because I have left the window open for you to disprove me and provide some evidence from your friend. Please, authentic this story so that it may be a reliable source of information for the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:02 am 
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The Cradle of the world is meaning the start of humanity.The Bible says that Adam and Eve came from around the Euphrates River which is in the Iraq area.I grew up with the Bible.I am questioning it, as this may not be the only record of the start of mankind or either maybe other records might have been lost. In the Indian's case most of their history is oral.I'm not trying to argue with no one.I just want to know the truth.We need to question things in life because some things are not always as they seem.It comes from my background of everyone telling me that I accept people and things as it is for the truth and I guess I am trying to prove a point to myself! We need to open our eyes to other possibilities.Jennifer P.S. The Bible was written by many men and there are so many contradictions in it and Christianity has used it to put so much guilt on others to try to control them while the 10 commandments are good to go by in life.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:26 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Posts: 654
WalLiDruDumA wrote:
Is this your final answer? Because I have left the window open for you to disprove me and provide some evidence from your friend. Please, authentic this story so that it may be a reliable source of information for the forum.


I'm sorry Wali,

I read your reply late last night and wondered how you were able to the quotes of a partial post. Something I had tried to do in my last post. Whatever I did last night I got the same results. It was an experiment. I edited it to just the number three because when I have tried in the past do delete something once the post has been made you have to put something, anything down. I just put a three. That was not a real response. I was way too tired to actually write some approaching making sense. I still have not been able to sleep. When I have more of what little wits that are left to me I will try to give you a better answer. I did not mean it to be an insult. But I have to deal with this at another time when I've had some sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:04 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Lostspirit wrote:
WalLiDruDumA wrote:
Is this your final answer? Because I have left the window open for you to disprove me and provide some evidence from your friend. Please, authentic this story so that it may be a reliable source of information for the forum.


I'm sorry Wali,

I read your reply late last night and wondered how you were able to the quotes of a partial post. Something I had tried to do in my last post. Whatever I did last night I got the same results. It was an experiment. I edited it to just the number three because when I have tried in the past do delete something once the post has been made you have to put something, anything down. I just put a three. That was not a real response. I was way too tired to actually write some approaching making sense. I still have not been able to sleep. When I have more of what little wits that are left to me I will try to give you a better answer. I did not mean it to be an insult. But I have to deal with this at another time when I've had some sleep.



I just isolate the paragraphs and then requote them. And then take the first part of the post that says [="Lostspirit"] and then simply put the "/quote" (replace "" with []) at the end of the isolated paragraph. And as for being tired, you’re ok, take your time. I was just curious as to when you would get back. No rush, I am very curious as to what your friend said and I'm willing enough to wait so that I can examine his claim.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:09 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
The Cradle of the world is meaning the start of humanity.The Bible says that Adam and Eve came from around the Euphrates River which is in the Iraq area.I grew up with the Bible.I am questioning it, as this may not be the only record of the start of mankind or either maybe other records might have been lost. In the Indian's case most of their history is oral.I'm not trying to argue with no one.I just want to know the truth.We need to question things in life because some things are not always as they seem.It comes from my background of everyone telling me that I accept people and things as it is for the truth and I guess I am trying to prove a point to myself! We need to open our eyes to other possibilities.Jennifer P.S. The Bible was written by many men and there are so many contradictions in it and Christianity has used it to put so much guilt on others to try to control them while the 10 commandments are good to go by in life.


Well I must be humble and ask if you are trying to equate the bible with science? Because these are two completely separate things. One states that humans originate from the Middle East and the other states that humans originate from Africa. I agree, the bible is a hypocritical piece of junk. Yet several native and brown folks continue to embrace these myths :(. This is not meant to disrespect anyone who chooses to believe in Christianity, I just feel that Christianity is a tool of enslavement meant to keep the indigenous and brown man away from embracing their true histories. And if you are saying the bible is bunk, then this is something we both can agree upon. I would rather our perspective people go back to our old beliefs. At least those beliefs didn’t contradict our perspective existences.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
i agree it is not worth argueing about, i have thought for along tme that religgion and science are supposed to be the same thing. Jesus said judge a tree by their fruit,nuf said, loud mouthed preachers never have been tolerated around here, my brother was recently telling me about a old man we know that socked another old man preacher that wants to get on his soapbox, we got other issues at hand, we cant change the way the universe works even if some fools think otherwise


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Posts: 327
Yes we Indians and others who want the Indian ways need to go back to the old ways.Christianity is something I don't believe in anymore.It's been awhile now.I believe in spirituality not religion.Spirituality and religion are two different things to me.A lot of the Bible is bunk.Jesus had 2 commandments. Love God with all of your heart and love others as you would love yourself.If we do these things we really don't need anything else from the Bible.Most Christians don't even honor that.Look at what they have done to others. I don't like the Western ways of life. I have never understood it.I want to go back to before the Indians met the Europeans.What a life it would have been. Jennifer


Last edited by Craig on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:55 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
pahanna wrote:
i agree it is not worth argueing about, i have thought for along tme that religgion and science are supposed to be the same thing.


Science and religion is not the same thing. They are two separate things, and the fact that several members are mixing the two is a little concerning. The bible and science says two separate things about the origins of man, and I believe a little digging of the two will help you to distinguish between the two.

No one is arguing. I'm just asking for clarification. If anything I think that many people are very misinformed because they keep mixing two separate phenomenon.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:00 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
Yes we Indians need to go back to the old ways and Christianity is something I don't believe in anymore-for a while now.I believe in spirituality not religion.A lot of the Bible is bunk.Jesus had 2 commandments. Love God with all of your heart and love others as you would love yourself.If we do these things we really don't need anything else from the Bible.Most Christians don't even honor that.Look at what they have done to others. I don't like the Western ways of life.I want to go back to before the Indians met the Europeans.What a life it would have been.Jennifer


I agree Jennifer, but we live in a scared world. Westernism has affected the rest of the world. We cannot ignore what westernism has done. Even if we wanted to go back we cannot. We must always live with the threat westerners could return if they were ever to leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:45 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:35 am
Posts: 22
.


Last edited by ablg234 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:22 am 
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God knew what he was doing when he made us.Look how intricate each one of our cells or our organs are.He made everything work together. Darwin's theory is bunk, made known from the Elites to make people think we are animals.Because they think we are lower than them.We are not monkeys even though we have some similarities. We have different DNA.God made us human. We are different.How do we know if their caveman findings was really an ape and not a human.I just know I am not a monkey and I don't think Ron Paul is a monkey. On the Western society thinking they have made people think that if you are poor you are nobody while most rich people are nobodies in my eyes.You have to look how they got their money most likely from some underhanded dealings.If you get your money from honest ,hard work that is different.But the way I feel I wish there wasn't a money system but to go back to the old ways of barter and trade.I just love the old ways.I think God put different races in different areas in the beginning.I think Indians were placed here in the Americas because look at the Swedes,they are fair in coloring and look at Eskimos.They are dark like the rest of the Indians and they both live in cold temperatures.Skin coloring has nothing to do with the climate. God made 4 races like the colors that comes from the sacred hoop.Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:37 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
ablg234 wrote:
I want to know where the whole of humanity came from and how did all these races develop? If China and India are next to each other howcome they don't look alike? I do think we were created and we do not come from monkeys! Maybe God made different peoples of different races all over and not just two people in one area.


I must say that your facts on this issue are severly off. Do people even try to read and understand what another side is presenting or do they simply allow bias to form their opinions? Not one comment you've made is based in verifiable fact. I understand that you have an immense hatred of western civilization, but in that disdain you must not rid of all the uselful things which this culture has designed. I have had to correct individuals several times on this forum now. If you believe that science and religion are the same things, then I ask you to use google search and do some research. Wikipedia would even been a reliable source in this situation. If you read about human evolution then you would know that humans do not originate from "monkeys", but that we descend from "apes".

Apes and monkeys are two separate things. Apes have a much better ability to think, use tools, and live in extremely complex societies. The average ape is roughly 5-10 times more intelligent than the average monkey. Humans are bipedal hairless apes. Our closet relatives are the genus Pan (Chimps, and Bonobos). In fact, humans and Chimpanzees share roughly 95% of their DNA with one another, meaning that we at one point or another originated from a common ancestor.

As for the "pigmentation" argument, humans have different shades to:

1.) Take advantage of their environments, and

2.) Because they came to their perspective regions at different times.

So to try and keep things short and sweet, your answer is a vast oversimplification of the truth that could be fixed if you were ever to use a Google search and actually try to understand what the other side was presenting.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:11 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
God knew what he was doing when he made us.Look how intricate each one of our cells or our organs are.He made everything work together. Darwin's theory is bunk, made known from the Elites to make people think we are animals.Because they think we are lower than them.We are not monkeys even though we have some similarities.

The fact that you know so little of Darwin's theory and mix it so many times with religion speaks volumes. You keep using "monkey" and mixing "ape". You keep mixing "western religion" and "science". All these things are very different things. To argue that they the same shows a lack of understanding either through will or misrepresentation. Of course you are not a monkey Jennifer, no human is a monkey. But we are all apes, hairless bipedal ones at that.


Craig wrote:
We have different DNA.

We share nearly 95 plus percent of our DNA with the genus Pan, which includes chimpanzees and bonobos. We are not that different.
Craig wrote:
God made us human.

I don’t know if he did or if he didn’t. All I know is that I am on this Earth in this place, at this time, with these people. This is all I know, and it is all I will ever know.

Craig wrote:
How do we know if their caveman findings were really an ape and not a human?

Well humans are apes, but if you’re trying to ask if a human was mentally deformed or had a messed up child etc. then we know this because the skeleton structure is too different to be a “fluke”. Again, using Google would’ve cleared this question up.

Craig wrote:
On the Western society thinking they have made people think that if you are poor you are nobody while most rich people are nobodies in my eyes.You have to look how they got their money most likely from some underhanded dealings.If you get your money from honest ,hard work that is different.But the way I feel I wish there wasn't a money system but to go back to the old ways of barter and trade.I just love the old ways.I think God put different races in different areas in the beginning.I think Indians were placed here in the Americas because look at the Swedes,they are fair in coloring and look at Eskimos.They are dark like the rest of the Indians and they both live in cold temperatures.Skin coloring has nothing to do with the climate. God made 4 races like the colors that comes from the sacred hoop.Jennifer


Now you’re just mixing your hatred for western civilization with a stream of unrelated situations :(. Of course we agree that western civilization is an underhanded sly piece of junk. I would agree 100%, but you are connecting western civilization with things it has no responsibility for, like the origins of man. They may have discovered where man is from, but that does not mean they “created” another myth. Science is not based in “myth”, it simply tries to “discover the truth”.

As for the whole race issue, there are roughly 7-15 distinct regional groups depending on the source you use.

I am not here at all to argue about western civilization. I am just astonished by how far off some people are in terms of actually understanding what their arguing. To make a good argument you must first understand what the other side is presenting. I am just amazed that people keep misquoting things and believe that they are quoting some profound truth. When you get in front of people and argue you have to present some reliable information. Furthermore, the fact that people keep mixing the concept of “western religion” and “science” shows how far off the beam people are in terms of understanding.

Most people who are Christian hate the theory of evolution and also believe it to be a hoax. So to present science as some all in one idea with western religion couldn’t be further from the truth. Most Christians are passionately trying to push Christian thought into today’s schools. They are trying to abolish the teaching of science and trying to replace it with ideology. So please, I beg of you, stop lumping two separate things with one another and try to make a coherent and logical argument.

And for the record, science does not come from Europe; it was originally conceived in Asia, mainly from China. The Chinese created most of the inventions that western Europeans later used to conquer the world. So I am giving credit where credit is due. Science and mathematics are not western inventions; they are mostly from China, India, and the Middle East. Europeans simply adopted these concepts as they have done everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
well it seems the jury is still out on it, i dont think we we made from a ball of clay like the bible says nor do i think we are descended from a monkey or a ape, my best guess is we are a hybrid ape and alien, not the illegal kind but the kind that scares the shit out of some cause nobody wants to talk about them, the truth is out there,beam me up Scotty, a term used in Indian circles is Great Mystery so theoriizng can go on and on, i have read some of the Dogan lore of Africa, they have knowledge on aliens or Star People as well Hopi, i have seen them flitting around in the sky more than one time, Great Mystery to me, if we came from a ape how come there are still apes, that theory dont hold water worth a damn to me


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Thanks Pahanna,If I weren't married I would kiss you.Wali there's no need to get your underwear in a wad! None of us knows the full truth.Jennifer


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Since I am an ape I am going to find me a gorilla and have a chimp baby and call him Cheeta!LOL We are going to have ndnhorseman on us! Jennifer


Last edited by Craig on Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:13 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
pahanna wrote:
well it seems the jury is still out on it, i dont think we we made from a ball of clay like the bible says nor do i think we are descended from a monkey or a ape, my best guess is we are a hybrid ape and alien


What you think and what is proven are two separate things. There is no evidence to suggest that people are anything more than people. There would be evidence if some group is mixed with something other than human. DNA always reveals ancestral origins or relatedness.

pahanna wrote:
not the illegal kind but the kind that scares the shit out of some cause nobody wants to talk about them, the truth is out there,beam me up Scotty, a term used in Indian circles is Great Mystery so theoriizng can go on and on, i have read some of the Dogan lore of Africa, they have knowledge on aliens or Star People as well Hopi, i have seen them flitting around in the sky more than one time, Great Mystery to me,


Unfortunately we can't change the fact that humans came from ape. I don't doubt that ancient people would've at one point or another meet ET, but you would rather believe fantasy than reality? This theory is heaps more racist to me than suggesting we came from apes. The ancient astronaut theory basically states that minorities who were not Asian or European needed the help of aliens to achieve building their great monuments. Basically that people who aren't white or Asian are too stupid to build their own culture and civilization. If you would rather believe this hogwash rather than people simply evolving from apes then I am powerless to stop you. You keep viewing science and technology as something which is "white" or “oppressive” so you try to blind yourself from the truth. And unfortunately there is no cure for people who arbitrarily ignore facts.

pahanna wrote:
if we came from a ape how come there are still apes, that theory dont hold water worth a damn to me


This isn't even a legitimate rebuttal as to why evolution isn't reasonable. In fact this is one of the worst and most frequently used reasons as to why evolution does not exist.

First and foremost humans are apes, so we are technically those apes "whole are still left" according to you. DNA is not an exact science but it is fairly accurate. We are most related to apes and share a number of similar characteristics. That is not by accident, it is because we are related.

Secondly, nothing stays stagnant. Meaning that apes that existed 4 million years ago don't exist today. In other words, we don't come from chimpanzees but we and chimpanzees share a common ancestor which lead to both human and chimp existence.

It doesn't hold water with you because you view this as some sort of western tool for conquest. Science is the exact opposite tool. It reveals what has happened and what has not happened. Science is far from perfect, but it eliminates impossibilities such as humans being half mixed with aliens, because humans are simply too incompetent to evolve and develop themselves :roll: . It also shows what likely happened, which is far better than the speculation that religions have given us over the past 20-30 thousand years. Make no mistake, I am a spiritual person, but when spirituality becomes so dominant that it overtakes the truth then there is a serious problem with that. You would rather believe that aliens of all things came to Earth and mixed with humans rather than understanding that humans simply evolved and became better over time.

I understand that the indigenous have a horrible history with social Darwinism, that is, the practice in which societies whom deem themselves superior to other societies have the right to conquer those societies and make them extinct or assimilate them. I believe that is what most individuals in this thread are in cahoots over, and I can't say I disagree with you. However, the issue with generalizing evolution or anything for that matter is that you miss out on the complexity which took place.
Darwin and several of his close friends were appalled by how the concept of evolution was being used. He spent his life fighting against slavery and the mistreatment of natives. Darwin knew that this was wrong and argued against the mistreatment of all humans for the remainder of his life. He was never able to do much to improve this, but even Darwin himself objected to the practice of dehumanizing other humans so that another group of humans can get ahead.
And to me this is the primary issue that is being discussed in this thread. It is about the legacy of social Darwinism not evolution itself, about the horrendous treatment in which the brown and indigenous man has suffered because of the western man. And I cannot disagree with this, it was horrendous. Often in western history people develop things meant to be used for good and understanding which are often used by power hungry individuals as tools to justify destruction and brutality.

However, we must not ignore the truth in our quest for liberation. I see a bunch of moping people feeling sorry. A desire to turn inward and away from the world. I can't help but to feel sorry for people who seriously believe that they can simply ignore the rest of the world as if it has never existed. I wish individuals such as yourself well on your journeys.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:15 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Craig wrote:
Thanks Pahanna,If I weren't married I would kiss you.Wali there's no need to get your underwear in a wad! None of us knows the full truth.Jennifer


I'm not upset Jen, you all are just making very poor arguments that are not including the totality of the situation. I find historical revisionism as kind of childish :| .

Craig wrote:
Since I am an ape I am going to find me a gorilla and have a chimp baby and call him Cheeta!LOL Jennifer


It is technically possible that humans can have a child with a chimp because we are from the same biological tribe, but it is nearly impossible to have a child with a gorilla because we are from two separate tribes. However, most likely a child from a chimp and a human would most likely be sterile. It is nature’s way of preventing species from mixing with one another who are two distantly related. The same thing happens when lions and tigers have children. Basically the end of your comment tells me that you have no desire to find out the truth and argue like a responsible person would. You would rather over simplify an argument and ignore the other side's argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Wali,Can I ask you what Indian tribe are you from? Apes and humans do have a lot of similarities and we are related but we are not apes.Has a woman ever had a baby by a chimp?I don't know of anyone who has.Looks like someone would have already tried. God made us different.We can not have children with anyone else but with another human.That is why humans have their own DNA.DNA is accurate,I agree with that.Jennifer


Last edited by Craig on Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins Of Indians
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:08 pm
Posts: 178
Location: north carolina
Wali, i know the scientific community has figured out a lot of things, nuclear energy shows that, but everything you just said is still theory and i dont buy it, now my brother got pissed off when i told him my theory, he said he thinks one of those apes learned how to make fire and we took off from there, and started burning the hair off i guess, i am figuring that you are unemployed like i am right now and have a lot of time to talk about stuff like this, it would be nice if we got paid like some of the more famous scientists, like how old is the universe, it really isnt that important compared to deciding if global warming is real and doing something about it, Peace


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