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 Post subject: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
I am always torn when I read articles and reports like this one. One hand it burns my ass when anytime a burial ground is found, those in power feel they have the right to disturb the resting place of the ancients. For "progress" they also feel they have the right to remove and relocate he bodies. On the other hand it does sometime add to knowledge about the ancients. When it all boils down to it I feel respect should always prevail in the end. All work should stop and the project relocated, and leave the dead as they lie, undisturbed.

The surprise of the researchers makes me wonder if they still think we were nothing more than mindless savages.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110622/ap_ ... 5ic3BzdG9y

What are the opinions of the intelligent and respectful members of the forum on the subject?


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:12 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
Hmmm, I can understand your frustration and point of view in this argument. However, I would have to unfortunately side with the "progressives" in this situation. I understand that the burial is sacred, but many burials of many cultures have been disturbed, even in their own culture. I believe that this is for a noble purpose. It is an attempt to reconcile and understand the past. I know that at this present moment tradition and honor roam amongst the Natives of North America. I believe the more bones and truth that are uncovered the more your people will be understood and free. True history will reverse the hogwash of natives being "savages and ignorant." The study of your people's culture and legacy will garner respect for you not only in the United States, but across the world.

I do think however it should be the goal of these archaeologists to return the bones and restore the site once the excavations and careful scientific research is finished.


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
Well Wali, if they want to know our cultures all they have to do is look at their own history. The Wampanog gave the pilgrims "subisidized housing" and "welfare, ie foodstamps" so they would not freeze and starve that first winter. The Powatan also gave jamestown " foodstamps" to keep them from starving, they were too busy looking for gold and silver to think about food to last the winter, until they were starving. Then they raided and stole the food supplies of the Powatan. They took the Great Law of the Iroquois and twisted it into their constitution, which they ignore when it suits them. The Tianio also gave columbus "Foodstamps" to ward off starvation. How did the charity get repaid? Hmmmmmm, where are the Pequad? The tiano? Wampanog? Powatan? Their entire nations wiped from the face of the earth. A few Taino did survive the slavery and disease. Many islanders in the Carribean have a small percentage of Taino blood, but it is only a couple of genetic markers.

As I said, I have mixed feelings about the subject. Think on this, they do not relocate their burial grounds to make way for a new super walmart or a shopping mall. The nations have to fight tooth and nail to get the remains and grave goods of the ancients back from the "researchers" and museums.


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:12 pm 

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:10 pm
Posts: 81
To be honest with you Flip I just don't know, I have complex and mixed feelings too. If the English, Spanish, and Portuguese hadn't idiotically exterminated all the natives, burned their written histories, and halted their oral traditions we wouldn't be having this problem today. In fact in Africa history most things are know from Bantu songs created to commemorate leaders or the special feats of kings. Most of what we know today in African history is from African oral traditions, NOT from written history. So to a degree I agree with you. But I'm very much torn on this issue. I find that many of the newer generation of archaeologist are not racist or bad people like their predecessors. In fact I would argue that many of them are doing this in good faith in order to understand the situation. Again, like I've said before this is an extremely complex situation.

This situation goes beyond pure science and archaeology. It asks the questions, “do humans have the right to be curious individuals? Do we have the right to explore and try to understand even what is forbidden?"

I can't possibly say I know the answer to this, but whenever I hear about things of this nature I think its is a better attempt of ignorant persons like myself to understand more of what America was like before the arrival of Columbus. I can not lie and say I don't get stoic visions of people and the atypical world of perfection without white aggression. But I archeology has actually done some good in recent years. One thing that archaeology has done is that it uncovered how to write Mayan words. For centuries the Mayan could not write or read their language, now the Mayan can go inside the temples of their ancestors understand their language.

It has helped people of non-indigenous decent understand the human atrocities of the past so that we may never repeat something like this again. And it has also helped people who are non-native connect more with natives.

One negative thing though is that it has caused a harsh new disease called new ageism. People think that they can just read a few books and become native. It has caused fake plastic shamans to erode the legitimacy of a true and expression indigenous medicine man. The list is infinite.

But I think discoveries like this are for persons like my self that have respect and reverence for the local cultures and don’t want to make fools out themselves by trying to be something that their not.


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
This is a double eged knife. I have worked in the construction industry most of my adult life. What facinates me the most is the civilizations of this hemisphere. I have poured and finished many tthousands of cubic yards of concret. Large brick paver driveways, and stone walls. The precision of the stonework is incredible. They left no tool marks on the stone. The level of technology amazes me as modern man can not replicate the work even with the most advanced tools available today.Ruunning water and sewage systems, things that are seen in europe during the time of rome. Then there is the golden airplane found in an ancient Columbian tomb. This "airplane" even has a tail rudder, a thing not seen anywhere in nature. Scale models tested in wind tunnels prove the design is as efficient as todays swept wing fighter jets. There are things that science can not explain. There is much that man is not meant to know.

I am as curious as the next person but where is the line drawn at? I choose to look at it like this. In 200 years do I want my burial disturbed? Do I want my body put on display in a museum or a persons home? No, I do not. Maybe I am just a selfish person, I dont think that is for me to say or judge.

I do not endorse the theories on the site the links go to. The site has many pages that pose questions that scholars can not explaine. So many things challenge what is thought to be acceptable science. Only when scholars and researchers dispose of all preconceived ideas about mans past, as well as the world, will science really move away from being racist grave robbers.






http://s8int.com/page9.html

http://s8int.com/page5.html


http://s8int.com/page2.html


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:55 am
Posts: 62
Location: Lakota Colony on our Eastern Frontier
I wondered when I read this if they would mind if we dug up their grandparents graves and took their gold fillings and crowns for "Research" if they would get upset.


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 Post subject: Re: A "discovery" of our ancient past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Traditional homeland of the Shawnee
StormsRider wrote:
I wondered when I read this if they would mind if we dug up their grandparents graves and took their gold fillings and crowns for "Research" if they would get upset.



Excellent point, my friend. If a person ever notices how they will never "relocate" a christian burial site, no matter how small in order to make way for a super walmart, target or a housing subdivision. This is why I have already stated in writting that if I die in an accident, I am to be creamated, my ashes to be spread in the mountains, along with the ashes of my dogs. In this way my body will still return to the earth. If I am ever diagnosed with a terminal cancer I will go to the mountains and take a long back country camping trip. When the end comes, all of me will return to the earth.There will be nothing to loot unless they strip mine that miuntain I end up on.

My daughter thinks I am crazy, if I have to walk in, but we want what we want. And I dont want to be disturbed.


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